Personal Productivity & The Future of Digital Publishing with Chris Guillebeau

Big Thinking, Interviews

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Tara:  How do you balance the pursuit of art and ideas with the pursuit of profit?  That’s the fundamental question we tackle on Profit. Power. Pursuit.  I’m Tara Gentile, your host, and together with CreativeLive, we explore the unique strategies that creative entrepreneurs use to take control of their lives, profit from their passion, and pursue greatness.

Today, I sit down with Chris Guillebeau, the New York Times bestselling author of the $100 startup.  An accomplished travel hacker, he has visited every country in the world 193 in total, before his 35th birthday.  Every summer in Portland, Oregon, he hosts the World Domination Summit, a gathering of remarkable, creative people.  Chris and I talk about how he still manages to do a lot of the work in his business, what systems he has in place to make sure everything gets done, and the key way he sees online publishing changing.

Chris Guillebeau, welcome to Profit. Power. Pursuit. Thank you so much for joining me.

Chris:  Awesome. Thank you so much for having me, Tara.

Tara:  Absolutely.  So let’s just get started by kind of talking about what all the different moving pieces to your business are.  You’ve got … You’ve always got a lot going on, so I’d love for you to just kind of explain to everyone what are all the different ways that your business or businesses are generating revenue right now.

Chris:  I do always have a lot going on for better or for worse.  I don’t know if that’s a good thing.  I can’t always keep track of it myself, but I would say maybe first and foremost, I’m an author, I write books, and I actually like the process of writing books.  I like everything associated with the publishing process and going on tour, seeing the books translated around the world, so that’s probably my main business.  It’s not something that I do to accomplish, you know, something else, but then maybe for the past 10 years or so, I’ve also produced a number of products.  I’ve done digital products, I’ve done eBooks and courses.  I have a business called unconventional guides that I operated for a while.  It’s still around, although I’m kind of phasing out of it.  I have a membership site called Travel Hacking Cartel, and I also do a lot of different events.  And there’s probably some other stuff in there, too.

Tara:  Yeah.  How about speaking?

Chris:  I do speak.  It’s not really a revenue model for me.  It’s more something that I do to kind of connect with readers, and you know, just to be out and about around the world.  But once in a while.

Tara:  Got ya.  Nice.  So you’re in Jakarta right now, and I think a lot of people know that you do a lot of traveling, and one of our listeners asked me specifically, you know, she just really wanted to know how people like you manage their time, and so I was trying to think about, like, how do I ask Chris Guillebeau how he manages his time when there is probably not a typical day in your life.  So instead, I’d love to know what are some of the systems that you have in place to make sure that everything gets done?

Chris:  You know, the greatest system that I have is that I love my work.  Like, I absolutely love what I do, and I feel very fortunate that I have the ability to write books and to publish the blog and connect with people, and so I’m very motivated by that.  Like it’s what I want to do.  If I won the Powerball, I’m pretty sure that tomorrow, I’d be doing exactly the same thing, and so that helps a lot.  I mean, when I say that’s the greatest system, it really helps a lot, because I get up in the morning, and I’m like let’s get to work.  Let’s do fun stuff, and yeah, I’m on the road all the time.  I’m traveling.  So I like to take time to see the cities and, you know, go on walking tours and have different experiences and discoveries, but then I’m also eager to kind of get back and do my stuff.  So you know, I always have my laptop with me.  I’m always kind of working on the next thing.  I’m a big list person.  You know, I love kind of writing things down and checking them off, and I always carry a notebook with me where I’m outlining stuff and planning ideas.  And so I get behind on things, it’s because I have too much going on, but I’m really motivated to keep going.  So that’s really the greatest system.

Tara:  Nice.  Is there any software systems that you use to kind of manage your day or manage your to-do list?

Chris:  Sure, sure.  Yeah.  I mean, I use Omnifocus.  That’s my number one, like, task, you know, program.  I don’t think it really matters which one you use as long as you have something that works for you, but that’s what I do, and then I have a lot of stuff in Evernote as well, which is great, because as most of the listeners probably know, you can access data from all kinds of different locations and devices, and it becomes more helpful the more you use it, so there’s that, and there’s some other stuff, but it’s all kind of cobbled together.  There’s no, like, one master system.

Tara:  Perfect.  So I’m sure, I know, actually, that another system you have is a team around you in your various ventures, and I’m privileged to be friends with a couple of people that are on your team.  So can you tell us a little bit more about what that team looks like and how they’re organized?

Chris:  Yes.  I should say, I am kind of a classic solopreneur.  You know, I was always doing my own stuff for a while, and I like working independently, so I don’t have like a huge team.  I have one employee, one full-time assistant, and she’s wonderful.  She’s been with me for a year now, but you know, for all the time before that, I was kind of doing a lot of stuff myself.  For the events that we do, we definitely have a team.  That’s not something I can do on my own, so I’m really grateful for them, but a lot of them are volunteers, some of them get a stipend, but maybe there’s 10 of those people.  We all work virtually, and then when I’m home in Portland, Oregon, most of them are based in Portland as well, and so we do have regular meetings either every other week, or once an event is approaching, every week, but everybody kind of does their own stuff, and everybody manages themselves for the most part, which is great, because I’m not a good manager.

Tara:  Yeah, that’s excellent.  I love the sense of independence that they each have, and I think it brings kind of a sense of creativity to your team as well.  I can see that, you know, in the different events that you do and just the way they talk about the ownership that they have over the work that they do with you.

Chris:  That’s good.  No, I’m glad to hear you say that.  I think it can be frustrating for some people.  That kind of work style doesn’t work for everyone, so it’s really important to get the right people, you know, in place for that, but for me, I think it’s a tremendously valuable skill whether you want to be an entrepreneur, whether you want to think entrepreneurially in another career working for someone else or working for a company.  It’s an extremely valuable skill to be able to kind of figure stuff out, basically, and to have a project or to have a responsibility, but not necessarily be given, like, here are the steps, you know, one through eight that you have to follow.  And so if you can find people like that, there’s just so much value there. 

Tara:  Yeah.  I think that’s a great point for everyone, because team-building is also a huge thing that our listeners are really interested in figuring out and finding out what’s working for people, and so I hear you saying essentially that you need to put together the team that’s going to work for you, and that that doesn’t mean that it has to look like a conventional job, or that it has to look like a conventional employee relationship, or that it even has to look like a conventional, like, management relationship.  That it can be something that works for you and works for a very specific type of person, and it doesn’t have to be a great fit for everyone.

Chris:  Right, exactly.  I mean … so it has to work for you as the business owner or the entrepreneur or whatever, but then it also has to work for that person, you know, as well.  So it’s not necessarily the easiest thing to find, but I think it’s something that’s kind of worth … worth investing in, you know, because anybody can follow a list of tasks, but it takes creativity, as you said.  It does take some entrepreneurial thinking to kind of figure stuff out and decipher it, and that I think is a skill that everyone can improve on regardless of your field, your industry, it doesn’t matter what you went to college for.  This is something that kind of sets people apart in life in general.

Tara:  Got you.  So you mentioned that you’re still doing a lot in your business or at least with the writing side of the business now.  What are some of the tasks that we might be surprised to learn you still actually do?

Chris:  Huh.  I mean, pretty much any sort of administrative task I still do it from time to time.  I mean, just putting together newsletters, I do all of my own social media.  I don’t know.  I guess … I guess there’s not much that I don’t do, but I also don’t want to take anything away from the people who, you know, work on stuff with me.  Like I’m very grateful for them.  I just don’t have much of a separation between like here are like these top level task and here are like these low-level administrative tasks, and maybe that’s something I need to work on, but at the same time, it’s also kind of helped me not get too distant from things.  It’s helped me kind of, you know, have direct contact with people and understand, like, where they’re going, what’s going on with them, and how I can hopefully be helpful or be of service in some way to them.

Tara:  Mm.  Do you have any kind of automation in place in your business, or are you pretty hands on with the day-to-day, you know, this needs to get done, that needs to get tweeted out, etc.?

Chris:  Very little.  I mean, I don’t have a problem with scheduled tweets or something.  Like that’s fine.  Like, we might like put up some posts or something that go out at different times, but I … I think, like, it’s important to not be disingenuous with it, you know?  If you’re sharing some content that you’ve written at some point, you know, nobody cares whether you’re like live-tweeting that or something, but otherwise, I try to be pretty, pretty hands on.

Tara:  Got you.  And you said you’re not a great manager, but I’m curious how you manage your team, if at all.

Chris:  Correct.

Tara:  You know, what … how do you set expectations?  How do you communicate with them on a regular basis?

Chris:  Well, we talk pretty much every day.  I mean, we talk by email, usually, or by chat or something.  The WDS team, we use Slack, which is a great network for keeping in touch with people in different time zones and things.  But I don’t like I said, I really don’t think I’m a great manager, so I try to focus on … I try to focus on the goal.  Like, okay, what are we actually trying to achieve here?  What are we hoping to do?  And then there’s lots of moving parts, and you know, as we said, the right people kind of pick up those parts and run with it, because you know, to go back to where we started, if you’re motivated by what you do, if you enjoy what you do, then you’re probably going to do it a lot better than if you’re just doing something because you have to do it.  So wherever you can find that magic fix, you know, between your own skills and the people that you’re working on, that’s where you’re going to see far greater success.  So that’s what I try to do.

Tara:  So the next question is one that I’ve asked just about every one of our guests, and the answers have been very different, and I’m really interested to see how you’re going to answer it.  So how do you balance the roles of writer and executive in your business?

Chris:  I think there’s a big tension there, and I think it’s a natural tension, it’s a healthy tension because I do enjoy, like, doing more than one thing.  I’m not good, you know, just working on one project at a time, but then, of course, there’s a cost to that.  So I think, you know, every year, I kind of evaluate, like, am I happy with the balance?  Am I, you know, am I creating art?  Am I actually writing?  That’s how I got started in this.  Or am I focused too much on business stuff?  And I think maybe a year or so ago, I went away and felt like I had, I wasn’t writing enough, and so I tried to focus more on that, but then I miss the other thing.  So I don’t know, I just go back and forth.  I guess every day I try to make progress on the things that I believe in.  I have these, it’s like kind of values-driven.  It’s like I’m not happy if I’m not writing on a regular basis, and so I know if I get away from that, I have to go back.  So I don’t know if it’s 50/50, I don’t know if it’s a precise balance, it’s more of like on a general basis, am I making progress on these things that I’ve identified are important to me?  If yes, I’ll be happy.  If no, I won’t be.

Tara:  Yeah.  I’m really intrigued that you mentioned kind of it being values-driven.  What are some of the values that you put, that you prioritize in your business and the way you work?

Chris:  I would say the, you know, the number two, the number one and number two values, and they’re interconnected, is these questions that I asked myself, like you know, what am I making, what am I creating, and whom am I helping?  Right?  And so it’s like every day, because most of us, like there’s all kinds of stuff that we could do, and the beautiful thing about this kind of creative work is there’s so many opportunities, but the tragedy of this, you know, creative work is that there’s so many opportunities, and how do we choose to focus, and so whenever I become overwhelmed, I try to go to these questions.  Like okay, am I making something, or am I just kind of spinning my wheels?  And if I’m spinning my wheels, I need to get out of that and focus on creating something, you know, that I can identify and point to and have some value for people, and then hopefully, I’m not just doing something that’s self-referential or, you know, self-glorifying, but it’s actually making a difference in people’s lives.  So am I making something?  Am I helping people?  If I’m doing that, that’s great.  If not, I need to adjust.

Tara:  Mm.  So continuing along that thought, every year, you post an annual review to your blog, and I know it’s a really popular post, and you know, it’s less about the kind of income reports that a lot of people put out at the end of the year every month and a lot more about the exact questions that you’re asking and the kinds of goals that you’re setting for yourself, and kind of a check-in on the goals that you did set for yourself and all of that good stuff, and as I was reading over this past year’s annual review to prep for the interview, I saw that you mentioned that you see a big change in online publishing coming, and I would really love to pick your brain on this, because I know what I think I see coming, but I know that you’re in a lot of different areas than I am.  So what is this change that you see coming, and how do you think you’re going to adapt your own approach to ride that wave or to take advantage of it?

Chris:  Well, don’t give me too much credit here.  I don’t think I’m a futurist.  I don’t think I’m like, “Hey, here’s what’s coming.”  I think I’m more of an observer that’s like, “Hey, here’s what’s already arrived.”

Tara:  Yeah.

Chris:  Like, you know what I mean?  Like this has actually happened, and I actually feel like I was kind of late to observe this, and I feel like everything that we have said for years, all of the great advice, you know, at least that I’ve dispensed, I don’t know if it’s as relevant as it once was.  I wrote a manifesto a few years ago called 279 days to overnight success.  It was one of the things I did when I was kind of first building my career, and it was like this case study model of how I, you know, built a sustainable business doing online writing, and so for years and years, like, that’s been out there, and you know, for years and years, I’ve said I think those lessons are still kind of relevant, and now I’m starting to think, like, well, the strategy of connecting with people and creating is still very much, you know, relevant.  That’s never going to change.  But I do think there have been so many changes in online publishing.  I think the thought leader space is incredibly crowded.  Everybody has a message; everybody has something to offer.  I think formats have changed.  I think platforms have changed a lot.  And it’s not just a matter of like, you know, this network is going down and this network is on the rise.  I think, you know, some of the traditional advice, which was, you know, well-meaning and accurate for a long time was all about this like hub and spoke model of like okay, so you got to, you know, built your hub, and like everything else is kind of a, you know, an anchor or something that drives people, you know, to your blog, but you really want to make sure everybody is on your site, and I think that’s still … that’s still great if you can make it work, right?  But you know, I think more and more people are choosing to be deliberate and engaging with platforms directly, and they actually want more of their stuff to be just on Facebook or on Instagram or Snapchat or whatever it is.  I don’t think the specific platform is as important as this overall trend.

I think, you know, maybe to kind of sum up what I see as either coming or has arrived, I would say the next big thing is small, and you know, the next big thing is far, far more focused on connecting with maybe not hyper-specific, but you know, much more intentional, smaller groups and going deeper than going broader.  And the thing is, people have said this for years, but I don’t know that they really believed it.  You know what I mean?  Like they were always like, “Oh, it’s far more important to have this small group of people and really focus on them than to like try to build a huge email list or a huge social media following or whatever it is, but in reality, I think most of us were like, oh, yeah, but it’d be really awesome, you know, to have the really big list or the really big social following.  And so you know, even though we said, okay, we’re going to focus small, but you know, our strategy is still kind of big.  I feel more and more and more that the people who are actually going to be successful on a scalable level, like, are intentionally and deliberately focused on that small group to the exclusion of anything else.  And that’s something I think you’ve done really well.  That’s something I see a few other people doing well, but I think a lot of people are still kind of behind.  A lot of people are using tactics that, you know, may have worked five years ago, but not necessarily going to work now, you know?

It’s like … I’ll tell you a quick story, and if this is going on too much, just tell me.

Tara:  No, it’s great.

Chris:  But when I first started, you know, online business, like so long ago, it’s like 17 years or something, you know, there was this new website called Ebay.com.  I went on Ebay.com, and I could like buy and sell, and it was a seller’s market at the time.  At the time, when EBay first got started, you could go to the store and buy things, and then put them on EBay, and people would pay more for it because it was like this new thing.  It was like, “Wow, I’m buying stuff on the internet.  Isn’t that cool?”  You know?  So that was fun, obviously, but it didn’t last because it’s a gold rush, you know.  It’s like this arbitrage thing that happens when something is new.

So the same thing has been true in online publishing, internet marketing, whatever you want to call it.  A number of years ago, you could, like, I’ll write an eBook, and I’ll write an eBook on, you know, I don’t know, how to clean my house better or something, and everybody will, you know, spend $100 on it.  That doesn’t work anymore.  You know.  I think things have changed so much because everybody has an eBook, everybody has a course, blah, blah, blah.  So I have a lot more thoughts, but I just talked for like three minutes, so I’ll stop now.

Tara:  No, I loved it.  Well, okay, so that got me … Actually, let me back up.  I love what you said about how people are being intentional about spreading their content out in a lot of different, or maybe not a lot of different places, but several different places now where they’re not putting quite as much value on the hub, although I do think people are still putting a lot of value on email lists, it’s less about the particular place people are going as long as there’s some way for them to get back on their email list eventually, but they’re putting content on Medium or they’re putting content on Facebook, and that doesn’t seem to be letting up at any time soon.

Chris:  Sure.  Sure. 

Tara:  But I also really liked and appreciated the way you talked about going small and how that’s going to help people create stronger connections with the people that they’re looking to serve, but I also think, as you kind of alluded to, that this idea of passive income, or at the very least, leveraged income is so attractive that people keep getting off-track with this idea of going small.  So could you talk a little bit about what you might see the relationship being between a small, focused, highly-engaged audience and this desire for passive or leveraged income?

Chris:  I think, I mean, this just relates to a classic, you know, business idea of what problem are you trying to solve, and I think a lot of people who are starting out now really don’t have a clear answer for that, and it’s probably our fault, the people who have been around for a while, you know.  I would say it’s our fault because, like, we didn’t necessarily have to have great answers for that many years ago.  I mean, we could, obviously, like, we could still focus on solutions, and focus on being helpful and genuine.  I don’t think it was, you know, fraudulent or something, but you know, I do think it was much broader and much more scattered, and I think, you know, the people who are successful now, whether it’s smaller pockets or bigger pockets, they really do have a clear and specific answer for that, and they’re not trying to be like this big thought leader, you know this online celebrity or whatever.  I mean, some people with really small email lists or social media followings or whatever can do very, very well.  You know, as you know.  I mean, you know lots of folks with stories and examples like that, whereas, you know, there’s many people who have very large followings who are actually struggling a bit, or not nearly as successful as you might expect them to be, and I mean, just a quick point on the email list, it’s like I totally agree that an email list is super, super valuable.  It’s one of those things where, yeah, if you could do only one thing, sure that’s great, but I also think we have to be mindful of giving people what they want, and I think what people want is changing quite a bit, and not everybody wants to give you their email, you know, sadly.  It’s kind of like the way I think about Facebook, because for years, I didn’t really like Facebook very much, and I was just kind of like Facebook is not my platform, I’m just not going to go there.  What I kind of realized over time was it’s not really about me, you know?  Because if my community, if a lot of people in my audience or whatever, if they like Facebook, then that’s where I should be.  You know, I have to find, I have to like adjust because it’s not like, you know, going to my readers and saying, hey, readers, like stop, stop, you know, this behavior or this pattern that you like.  You know, come and join my email list, right?  And so what’s interesting is you can look at lots of people who’ve been very, very successful, you know, just building businesses on social, which I understand is completely the opposite of the advice, you know, that we’ve given to people over the years, and I have, too.

Think about something just briefly before we go on, like Humans of New York.  I would say probably everybody listening to this is familiar with Humans of New York.  If not, obviously, go and look it up.  This guy has, you know, millions and millions of followers.  Does he even have a website?  I don’t know.  I mean, I guess he probably does, but I would say 99, you know, percent plus people, you know, have become familiar with this project and become passionate fans of this project simply through the stories that he shared through social.  So it’s a totally tricky thing because I guess it relates to where we started, it’s a whole new world, and it’s not like everybody should like shut down their website and their email list, but I think people should pay attention, because, you know, change is coming, change has already arrived, and the people who went are the ones who are aware of that and can adjust going forward.

Tara:  Yeah.  I love your point about giving people what they want, being very mindful of what people want as well, and I’m sure you can make decisions that work for you in that paradigm as well, but really being intentional about understanding and delivering on what people want, and I’m really glad that you mentioned Facebook, too, because I had totally forgotten about that, but I’ve noticed recently, maybe within the last four or five months how much your Facebook strategy has completely changed.

Chris:  Yup.

Tara:  Can you give us a little bit more detail on that?

Chris:  Yeah, you’re so kind when you say it completely changed.  You mean, like, all of a sudden I started posting.

Tara:  Yes, that’s what I mean.

Chris:  That was the change of strategy, right?  Before, I had a Facebook page and people could like it, but I didn’t do anything there, and then I had this great idea of like actually posting, you know, to my page.  That was the big insight I had last year.  And you know, historically, I loved Twitter.  Twitter was like, that’s my network.  I’m so … I’m comfortable there.  I like that, you know, but what I noticed was, you know, people were engaging less and responding less, and so that’s when I was like, well, I have to figure out where the people are, and so just as an experiment, I started posting more on Facebook, started seeing much more, much greater responsiveness and engagement, so I just followed them there.  I don’t think the lesson for listeners, necessarily, is Facebook is better than Twitter.  That’s not the point because that’s going to change again in two or three months or six months or whatever.  Again, the lesson is where we started, like give people what they want.  Figure out where they are and go to them, as opposed to saying like here’s where I am, you should come to me.

Tara:  Yeah.  I have done the exact same thing over the last six months.  You know, my whole Twitter life has changed, and I can be sad about that personally, but businesswise, I know the best decision is to go to where my people are, and you know, since realizing that and being very intentional about that, I’ve seen my Facebook following really explode, and I’ve really enjoyed creating content for, specifically for Facebook, but I also really appreciate you saying that you need to give people what they want and go where they want to go, but you know, be intentional about it.  It’s not about following whatever the latest, greatest thing is, it’s about making real decisions for your business.

Chris:  Absolutely.

Tara:  Awesome.  So let’s talk a little bit about the live events that you have been hosting for the past five years.  I’ve told you before that I was at the very first World Domination Summit, and it literally changed my life.  I am so thankful for that experience and the people that I met there.  I am still just a such … I mean, they’re my best friends in the whole world.

Chris:  That’s awesome.

Tara:  Yeah.  So hosting live events has really become a big part of your brand.  It’s something that a lot of people know you for.  Perhaps as much or more so than travel hacking.  So what do live events help you accomplish in your business because I bet it’s not profit?

Chris:  Well, you just said it.  Your kind introduction there of talking about how you came to WDS and it, you know, connected you with greater people, and you know, it’s something that you remembered, and of course, you’ve been part of our stuff for years, which is great.  I think that’s why I do it.  That’s the motivation.  You know, and the motivation for everything I do is to have some sort of impact, and you know, hopefully to, you know, maybe not necessarily be a catalyst in people’s lives, because I think people come to my work when they’re already in a place of like being pro-change or wanting to do something different or wanting to follow a dream or just looking for greater support, but hopefully being like an amplifier to that, and being able to say like, oh, that’s awesome that you’re doing that.  You know, here’s some other people that are also doing awesome things, and you’re not alone and let’s support one another.  So I think that’s very powerful, and it’s not completely like a selfless thing.  It’s not sacrificial.  I benefit from it, too.  I really, really enjoy it.  You know this process of hearing stories like that, so that’s why I do it.

Tara:  Got you.  So I’m going to ask you a selfish question now.

Chris:  Okay.

Tara:  Which is I’m putting on my first event in April, and I would love to know if you had one piece of advice to give me about putting on a live event, what would that be?

Chris:  Hmm, well, one piece of advice, okay.  Yeah, it’s just the problem … the problem is being succinct.

Tara:  Well, I’ve already hired Isaac, so that part is covered.

Chris:  Okay.  That’s good.

Tara:  So something else.

Chris:  Okay, okay.  No, I mean, you’re in good hands with Isaac, of course.  I would say that one thing, maybe, like you kind of touched on is like to really be clear on what your intention and goal for it is, and I’m sure you’ve done that.  You know, you’ve been to many events.  I mean, you’ve spoken at many events, you’ve been on teams for events, so I think you understand, like, what you hope to get out of it, and you understand that it’s probably not profit, or at least that’s not the primary goal.  If you have some kind of, you know, mission-driven focus for it, then I think that’s great.  If you can challenge your attendees in some way, I think that’s also great, you know, leave them wanting more, but of course, you know, try to excel in everything you do.  I’m sure it’ll be great.

Tara:  Wonderful.  Thank you so much.  So let’s talk a little bit more about World Domination Summit for a minute because you’ve made the decision after five years to change up the format in a really big way.  Can you tell us a little bit more about that and why you made that decision?

Chris:  Yeah, so I announced this at last year’s event, and I don’t think I did a very good job, because ever since then, people have been asking about it, and what people are saying is like, oh, you’re making the event smaller, and that’s not necessarily what I was trying to accomplish.  What we’re doing is we are kind of scaling the mainstage component of the event back, which is the weekend focus of like a, you know, Friday to Sunday.  That is going to only 1000 people now instead of 3000 where it’s been the past three years, but then we’re also expanding everything else that happens throughout the week, and so we’re moving to more of like a week-long total experience where I actually hope that we can serve, I don’t know, 3000-5000 people this year probably, but then for the, you know, the immersive portion, we are focusing on a smaller audience.  So it’s kind of a two-prong strategy to better serve the people who are like yes, I want to be fully immersed, you know, I want this kind of special, you know, special high-touch experience, but then also serving people who aren’t able to come to that or who just want to kind of connect with other people but actually formalizing that process so that they have a way to do that.

Tara:  Again, you’re giving people what they want, right?

Chris:  We’ll see.  We’ll find out.

Tara:  All right.  So you’ve got a new book coming out that should be out I think right about when we’re going to be releasing this episode.

Chris:  Awesome.

Tara:  And the book is called Born for This, right?

Chris:  That is correct.  Yeah.  New book is to help people find the work they were meant to do, and this is the culmination of many years of research with all kinds of people who have forged or created unconventional careers, and I found a lot of people who use phrases like I feel like I won the career lottery, you know?  I love what I do, I can’t believe I get paid for this, you know, I would do it for free, but you know, I actually do get paid for it, so that’s even better.  So how did those people, you know, find that work, how did they create it, whether they’re entrepreneurs or whether they think entrepreneurially, but you know, find their best path within a corporate structure or some kind of organization.  Like my mom, for example, was a rocket scientist for NASA.

Tara:  I didn’t know that.

Chris:  Yeah.  Fun fact.  And if you want to be a rocket scientist, you’re not really freelance most of the time.  You know, most of them work for somebody, and I talked to the first female firefighter in Mississauga, Ontario.  She’s one of my case studies for the book, and so the same kind of story there is like okay, if you want to be a firefighter, like, you have to, you know, do that with other people.  So how do these people like find that work, what lessons do they have that they can offer, and how can readers, you know, find the work they were meant to do.  So I’m excited about that.

Tara:  Brilliant.  I’m excited about that, too.  So beyond the book, what’s next for you?

Chris:  Well, the book is a big thing right now, because just as it’s out, I’m going on the road.  I’m doing thirty cities.  Would love to have, would love to meet up with people.  If you go to BornForThisBook.com, you can get free tickets to any number of events.  That’s about a two to three-month process, then we go into the new WDS, then I hope to just keep doing what I’m doing.  I hope to keep traveling, I hope to keep writing, I hope to keep connecting with people and learning, changing it up as we go, because as we’ve discussed, change is the only constant, but again, I feel very fortunate, so I hope I can keep doing it.

Tara:  When, specifically, is the book coming out?

Chris:  April 5.

Tara:  Love it.  Chris Guillebeau, thank you so much for joining me.

Chris:  Thank you so much.

Tara:  Chris’s CreativeLive Bootcamp, Make Your Dream Trip a Reality can be found by going to CreativeLive.com/business. 

On the next episode, we’ll sit down with Natalie McNeal, author of She Takes on the World and the Conquer Kit.  We went behind the scenes on how she plans her year, grows her email list, and works with her team.  Don’t miss it. 

That’s a wrap for this week’s episode of Profit. Power. Pursuit. CreativeLive podcast.  Download more episodes of this podcast and subscribe on iTunes.  If you appreciate this kind of in-depth content, please leave us a review or share this podcast with a friend.  It means the world to us.

Our theme song was written by Daniel Peterson, who also edited this episode.  Our audio engineer was Kellen Shemezu.  This episode was produced by Elizabeth Madariaga.  You can catch up on older episodes in the iTunes store, where new episodes are added every week, and learn more by going to CreativeLive.com.